Fandom, Let's Talk About Fic a Moment, Shall We?

[mousapelli]

Here's a little timeline for you:

2008 - 5 Times Miyata Didn't Believe in Love - 20 comments
2009 - Nobody But You - 20 comments
2010 - At First Sight - 27 comments
2011 - Party Don't Stop - 6 comments. Hm.
Debut Happens
2011 - Communication - 7 comments
2012 - Say Say Say - 4 comments.

All of those (except 1 Nisen) are Tamamori/Miyata, same pairing, same fandom, in a common fandom pairing, no rarepairs, no crazy kinks or anything weird. See that precipitous drop in commenting? Right as we get to debut and we have an influx of people and fandom should be getting a swell of writers and fangirls and excitement?

I've been trying to hold off posting about this because I'm already cranky from end of school year, and I know I'll just come off sounding like a comment-whoring jackass, but when a perfectly serviceable main pairing confession/get-together fic in a band-specific exchange gets 3 comments (which is exactly what happened with Say Say Say), then I have to say that we are once again totally overdue for The Talk.

You know the one I mean.

Commenting on fic makes authors happier. Happier authors write more often and encourage new authors to write, and then everybody has more fic. You can say I'm wrong or that I just want attention, but I've written in dozens of fandoms and I can tell you 100% the fandoms with the most active commenting have the most active authors. And don't tell me it's about size, because it's not. Hikaru no Go and Loveless both had/have totally respectable fic/comment ratios, just to pick two. Kisumai(/ebi/jrs) isn't tiny, and it certainly didn't get tinier over the last 5 years.

also, okay, I do want attention, fine. That's why I post things on the internet. It's not that I will stop writing when nobody says "thank you" or "I liked this," obviously, but did I write longer and better fic back when I got more comments? You bet. And after putting in so much effort for my Fic2 fics and having it turn out like Say Say Say, did I take a break and think really hard about putting energy into new things because I was discouraged? Yup, for sure.

And I'm a seasoned, reasonably self-confident author. New, nervous authors need more support if you want them to stick around, improve, and produce fic regularly. Authors with busy lives/school/work need impetus to put their energy into writing.

Lurkers make authors sad, and sad authors don't write as much, or bother setting aside time and energy to write at all. Here's the thing, guys, lurking is not invisibility. We can see you. There's LJ stats, there's counters, I can see accidentally via my stupid clicky pokemon, how many people are clicking into a fic, vs how many people say thanks. The generally accepted figure for how many people comment out of how many people read/downloaded/did whatever on your post, in any fandom, is about 10%. Right now I'm at ~2%, sort of, and that's better than pretty much all the kisumai authors I can name. It sucks. It's not encouraging. It doesn't make me want to plan new stuff or get excited.

And maybe you clicked a fic you didn't like, or firefox crashed your tabs, or you read on your phone and couldn't comment, there's reasons people don't comment, sure. But not EVERYBODY is busy/had drama/hated it ALL the time. And if you had enough time to read the whole thing, you really don't have the 10 seconds it takes to type "I enjoyed this" and then click a button? Unless it was like a je100 drabble, but that hasn't exactly been a hotbed of authorial support either lately.

The comment that drives me the craziest, and I hesitate to bring this up because it probably means I will stop getting even this, is that at least once every week or two, I get a pm that says "I read all your stuff all the time and i love it but I never comment because I'm too shy!!!" Oh, fandom, why. It's the internet. No one cares who you are. If it worries you so much, comment anonymously! Create a sockpuppet account! Like, it's nice that you at least say that one thing the one time, but see above, how steady commenting creates a community where authors produce better fic more regularly. Lurking produces nothing but posts from me about how frustrating it is to write when everybody's a lurker.

This is why Kisumai(/ebi/jr) fandom has so few fic-producing authors. It's because everybody wants to lurk. But you can't all lurk, all the time. We used to have a bunch of new authors trying stuff out, at least a couple fics on the comm a week. Now we have a fic/fanwork comm, and there's next to nobody posting. When I repost fics to the comm, I get like 1-2 comments out of it generally, despite the influx of random people it directs to my journal.

Guys, it's so bad right now that everybody I've talked to in the last 2 weeks about this, all longtime authors, have all said I shouldn't even bother posting about it, there's nothing anybody can do about it, I'm wasting my time and should just accept that our fandom sucks. It didn't used to suck, and I don't have to just accept that. This can totally get better again!

We need more authors. The authors we have need encouragement. If you like reading fic, you've got to learn/remember that the reason LJ works for fandom is that it encourages community exchange, and if that didn't matter, then we'd all be on Fanfic.net or Ao3, just in archives.

tl:dr - here's what you can do right now:
1. Comment on what you read, even if it's just "Thank you" or "I enjoyed this." you don't have to be witty or have awesome insight or anything, just say if you liked it. I swear to you, this makes everybody happier.
2. Write something! You really can! It takes practice, and we all had a first fic once. If everybody is too shy to post, soon we'll be down to zero authors. Fandom has to refresh itself, because in case you haven't noticed, we don't have a plethora of established, regular authors just hanging around at the moment. If you can string 3 words together, we'll probably love you.
3. Stop lurking. We can see you, you aren't hiding. You're just making fandom sad.

And if all this post did was make you think I'm a jerk, I can't stop you. If it makes you happy, you don't have to ever comment on anything of mine ever again, I'll live. But here's some people and things you really should comment on, especially if you've already read them and done nothing:

Reveals for Fic2, the all kisumai exchange, which was full of good and varied fic, and was not well-commented on at all. In particular the fic I received, Hesitation, is Miyata/Tamamori and deserves way more than the 2 comments it has. 2! Fandom, I am ashamed of you.
Here's a handful of fics I got for my birthday, all of which deserve comments and love because they were good reads. All kisumai except 1 Yara/Yamaryo.
Here's the Fanfic tag for kismyshowtime, full of authors who I'm sure would love some encouragement or just a thank you.

Comments

[gemmiesky.livejournal.com]

I always try to comment, even if its just a heart. I don't read that many though. Also, I write, but as you've touched upon, I'm shy. I post in my own journal though. At least a few. And I did post a few drabbles in JE100 :)

I agree that people should comment though and that when it seems no one is paying any mind to what you are writing, you just don't always want to keep going.

I hope things get better. And good for you for speaking your mind! :)

[peroxidepest17.livejournal.com]

THIS FOR ALL THE FANDOMS VERY HARD. <3

[imifumei.livejournal.com]

Thank you for specifically mentioning my fic, even though I wasn't very good about commenting myself. It really is hard to get psyched up when you know nobody is going to read something. It is even worse when, as is the case with some participants in exchanges, even the recipient doesn't comment. It would be nice if commenting were a more universal thing.

[elij-0650.livejournal.com]

Totally hugs & orz.
We have a new computer system at work and my brain is 100% mush.
I will give myself a treat on the weekend and read kisumai fic instead of computer manuals.

And I promise to comment coherently.

[yararanger.livejournal.com]

I like this post a lot. ♥

[loveandcoffee.livejournal.com]

Basically - yes, you're right. I am one of those guilty of rarely commenting and I am sorry for that. I'll try my best to comment more in the future.
Having said that, I cannot speak for all fandom, but I'd like to say why I rarely comment. There are two main reasons.

Yes, I am shy. What's wrong with that? You say: "It's the internet. No one cares who you are.". Well, that's pretty obvious - but I'm not talking about "OMG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SEE MY USERNAME AND SEE THAT I READ GAY FIC!!!11" kind of shy. I'm definitely not afraid of putting my name out there when I express my opinions and stuff. I'm talking about "Wow this author is amazing and she's my akogare (please understand this word as I don't know of any decent English equivalent), and she always writes stuff that makes my heart skip a beat and feel a lot of things. And look at the articulate, in-depth comments other people have left! And how am I going to condensate into words all I felt? Am I just going to write a silly flail+thanks kind of comment? Isn't it going to be annoying? What will she think of me? (I KNOW you probably really don't think anything and are probably happy anyway but this is not how the mind of a shy person works) damn it, I give up." kind of shy. Which is a totally different thing, even though the outcome is the same. To comment on fic when I can't express in words what I felt I have to force my nature to an incredible extent. I will try to, now that you've said you're happy even with just one liners, and I definitely want you, someone I admire, to be happy more than anything else; but deep down I'll always feel uncomfortable with just saying "I loved it, thank you".

The other reason - you might have seen me posting my translations, no? Well, of course I am thrilled and delighted when people comment and tell me what they felt reading the interview/j-web, or tell me what made them laugh in it or how their idea of a member changed due to something they said in it or make a joke about something that's in it; but to be honest I'd rather have a low comment ratio than find a couple dozen "Tama-chan is so cute ahahah thank you for translating!" in my inbox. I see that people read it via the LJ stats, and I'm content with that. So I thought (naively? stupidly?) that it'd be okay with other people, too. I see my mistake now ._.

One last thing. When you say "write something! you can!" you seem to forget not everyone is a native English speaker, and not everyone has a knack for storytelling.
I write something, rarely, in my own language, but I wouldn't do it in English although I consider my English proficiency at least decent. Writing a story requires full command of the language you write in and while there are a few ESLs who do have it and can write really good fiction, I don't consider myself good enough for that. Essays, articles, general posts? Yes, I can do those. If I'm particularly troubled with something I can always reword it, try to express it differently or just explain it using more words. But in fiction even the smallest nuance is important, and you can't just throw in a lot of information; less is more in fiction, but it requires skills that not every ESL may have.
I also don't think that even being a perfect, fluent English speaker warrants being able to write good fiction. I am definitely good when it comes to knowledge and command of my own language, and I am very proud of my non-fiction works, but even so I am not a good narrator. It's not a question of practice - if you can't think of stories in your head, or you just get a tiny snapshot with no idea of how to develop it effectively, there's only so much that practice can do.
Of course I agree with you when you say that new authors who feel like they want to try their hand at writing should be encouraged and supported; I just had the impression, not just from this post, obviously, that somewhere along the way people started thinking writing fiction is an individual's necessary contribute to fandom - while I think it's totally okay to not have this kind of talent or inclination and contribute in another way (translations, file sharing, discussion - damn, I miss NON-ANONYMOUS discussion in this fandom).

That was long and not well written. I'm sorry .__.

[sashjun.livejournal.com]

Applaud, so much of it I can´t . . . because these days every time I finish a fic and then spend twice as much time as the writing took editing it, having a beta go over it, sometimes more than once, then editing some more, I wask myself why I even do it if I could just file it away and be done with it now that I have completed the story and the storyteller in me is basically satisfied.

Okay no more ranting. Just yes this!

[flailinginlove.livejournal.com]

I write because I want to write and because if I don't write I have annoying plot bunnies nibbling at my brain constantly. It's a catharsis and a reward in and of itself. I've started posting again because I've found that it seems to make me finish more fic. Getting comments is a very nice bonus but not something I need to keep me happy or keep me writing. I could get 100 comments tomorrow and it wouldn't make me write more or faster. Lurkers don't make me sad. I'd rather have a few people comment because they sincerely like something than a lot of people comment because they feel that they have some sort of fandom obligation to do so. I guess that's just me though. *shrugs*

Also, I just activated the 2 week paid user trial because I was curious since I've never bothered to look at my stats before and they are so misleading.

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

I just think it's not unreasonable for people to say thank you to authors (or artists or translators or download uppers) who produce things in their fandom. I'm worn out of this climate where nobody does that and it's acceptable. It's not acceptable. It's dickish.

Two years ago, more people commented and participated, and more people wrote. Now, nobody does and nobody does.

[flailinginlove.livejournal.com]

And I am of the opinion that there are a lot of reasons people don't comment on fic/translations/whatever and very few of those reasons make people dicks.

Two years ago, more people commented and participated, and more people wrote. Now, nobody does and nobody does.

Excluding the comment part, do you really believe that? It's always seemed to me like Kisumai fandom has been short on fic. Two years ago in May there were 12 fic posts to the comm, most of which were by writers who are still writing now (you, Rachel, Amy, etc). So far in May this year there have been 7 fic posts in the fic comm and that doesn't count a lot of the people who were posting 2 years ago on the main comm but no longer (or rarely) cross-post now. I think a number of those posts are by people who are possibly newer to the fandom. Considering the fic comm has less than 300 members, that doesn't seem so bad to me. So I really don't think we are in some kind of unprecedented, vicious no comments-no new authors-no fic cycle.

Yes, Ikemen and debut brought in a lot of new fans but new fans are also a lot less likely to actively participate in a fandom until they are more comfortable with it for fear of doing something wrong or because they are intimidated by the 'BNF' or whatever reason. Maybe it's just Kisumai fandom having some growing pains and things will sort themselves out in a year or so. Like I said, it's not something I'm going to stop writing over. *shrugs*

[fantomeq.livejournal.com]

It really bugs me that less than 1% of my readers review. That is the nice thing about AO3, at least, that somebody can clicky the kudos button if she's in a hurry. That gets me up to 10%.

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

Yes, I do feel like that. At the beginning (5 years ago) there wasn't a lot of awesome fic, but there was always some. When Beth and I started JE100 there were always a few people writing, even if not everybody wrote each week. There's been a steady decrease everywhere.

I'm glad you don't feel discouraged by the way things are, but I've got 5 authors on this post already saying that its affected them and their writing. It's not just me.

And it's not important why any one particular person doesn't comment at whatever particular time. What the problem is is that very few people overall comment and it's discouraging overall.

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

I've stopped having anybody beta outright because the only people I would ask to do it are also the only couple people who will probably read it visibly. You're right, it isn't worth it.

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

I know your username when I see it, I wouldn't call you a lurker or anything. But yes, it's really hard to keep people motivated on JE100 especially when there's so few other people participating or encouraging. It's a self-feeding cycle.

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

See and it's funny, because the people apologizing here aren't people I would call lurkers. I see you around in places, I recognize your username. I know people get busy and there's no problem with that. But that can't possibly be ALL the people on here ALL the time. If I put up a poll about something, there'll be a dozen people on there at least whose usernames I've never seen before. Thats the sort of thing that is the problem.

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

See, but you aren't the problem. I know who you are, I see you around. You contribute things. As you point out, there's lots of ways to participate in fandom without writing. But just because not everybody can write, that doesn't mean that nobody should try. There just simply aren't new authors filling in spaces as usual authors get busy or change fandoms. I want to read just as much as I want to write, and there is just so little action, it's a shame.

[ilanala]

I've had the exact same experience with Kanjani8 fandom, where even though the group has gotten more popular, the number of comments I've received for similar fics has dropped off precipitously. It seems like every time there's a hate meme, people start ranting about how authors should write because they want to and not for comments, which is true to a point, but it's still really nice to get comments and disheartening to get very few even when people are clearly reading your fic.

I was really nervous about posting fic when I first got into JE fandom, but people were so supportive and encouraging that I pushed myself and did it and kept doing it. If I got into this fandom now and psyched myself up to post something only to get almost no comments, I might very well give up. And then people wonder why there's less fic than there used to be...

[gemmiesky.livejournal.com]

I actually seem to have a hard time sticking to a theme >.> its weird.. The next open theme week I'll post the last one I wrote though :)

[kuro-chin.livejournal.com]

*favorites*

I admit to not commenting as much as I should as a member of the kisumai community, but I've also decided to take up the project of actually leaving a comment to (almost) everything I read. The decline is comments is downright sad, so I hope the rest of the fandom will do the same. ♥

[miquilis.livejournal.com]

As a confessed lurker I feel I should apologise. This post is very well written and I understand the frustration and recognise it as a huge problem within fandom. Not only amongst fic writers but that people don't even simply thank for subs and download links and then by consequence if people don't feel like their contribution to fandom is appreciated or even acknowledged they'll stop sharing.

But then I also understand and feel regret that I'm part of the group of people that make excuses - I was on a lj hiatus so I'm only just getting back into using it, I open tonnes of tabs with the intent to comment and then can't think what to say or procrastinate too much or change computers and the tabs are gone. In the future I really do want to make much more of an effort.

I should say sorry again as I've had Foxfire open in a tab for weeks meaning to comment on it again since you re-posted after the exchange. Well, yosh, I know what I'm re-reading in work tomorrow then.

[noella84.livejournal.com]

First of all, I totally agree regarding the "this fandom should have more comments" part.
Personally whenever I read something I try to comment even if it's just to tell the author I enjoyed what I've read. As a fic author (well pretty much) I obviously feel happy for a comment, even if it's just a "Thank you", but that's not exactly the same as receiving a comment that shows the feelings of the person who read your fic. Sometimes that "Thank you" just feels like another view on the stats, and that's it. I'm not saying that everyone should write long comments or that simple thanks are useless, I appreciate that too, and I understand that the person who just writes that had his reasons to do so.

On the other hand I can’t say I agree with the "everyone should try writing" thing. I know it's potentially true that anyone can do it. I know practice makes you better.
But just because someone likes to read fic it doesn't automatically mean they want to write.
Also you need passion to do something.
In my case, since I also draw fanart, when I read comments like "I wish I could draw like that" I could answer: do it. Draw. Everyone can draw. But would that be true?
Just because something is easy for me it doesn't mean it's easy for someone else.

Now, I try to write fic and I find it extremely difficult because I'm not a native English speaker. But I'm not using that as an excuse to stop writing. I'm writing more and more, make mistakes, study new things everyday and try to improve. It takes lots of energies doing it in my own language, and it takes even more energies in a language that is not mine. But I continue because I want to. I publish things on the internet to see if I'm going in the right direction too.
Unfortunately not everyone has the patience to go through this process, not everyone can write stories or maybe they just don’t have the confidence to do so.

And yes, receiving more comments would be great but receiving useful comments would be better. Especially for new authors I think it is great to feel supported by comments, but it would be even better if comments were a space to discuss and share opinions as well as a place to show appreciation. I understand that here you are talking about people that are not even making the effort of leaving a “thank you” comment, so this is even more unthinkable probably, but I just feel that the comments issue and lack of open discussion in this fandom is a bit discouraging.

I really hope this post will make people think and decide to make an effort with comments.

[un-sanzo.livejournal.com]

I do agree that people don't comment enough. I myself, probably don't comment enough XD.

It's a good thing you shared your point of view. Commenting to show your appreciation might seem something obvious, but before other authors brought up this problem some time ago I was hesitant leaving comments with just a "thank you" or maybe a "dfghjkl".
I do write fic (I try to at least) and I draw fanart, so I know that receiving comments makes the author happy (it doesn't make me write or draw more though), especially the first times you post something and you wonder if you totally suck or not. But I also used to think "what difference does it make to authors who have been writing for a while?".
NOW I know it does, because it doesn’t matter for how long you’ve been writing, but I think I needed to be told so.

I have to admit though, I’d love people to write longer comments more often. I’d love even concrit at everything I do, I think that this could really push me doing more, knowing what’s good and what’s not, but I understand that not everyone want to hear negative comments from random readers and there are betas and memes for that anyway.

Just out of curiosity, do you find things like Webclap acceptable? Other people told me simple “thank you”s are okay for them, but anonymous appreciation buttons are not. Since I can’t see much difference between the two things, I wonder what others might think about this~

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I didn't say much about it because I didn't want you to feel bad as mod, but I was pretty appalled by the lack of commenting in general by the participants of the exchange themselves. No wonder it feels sort of self-defeating to write, when even writers themselves aren't particularly encouraging about it. I knew, when I got to 5k much less the 10k that it turned out, that I was putting way too much effort into the Taipi/Tama to be pleased with the results, but when the Miyata/Tama got the same results or worse, I was stung, to be honest. It makes it difficult to want to put in the effort to plot out decent fic and to edit it and polish it, when I could throw up 2k of bullshit I wrote in a couple hours and then when nobody comments, I'm not as affected by it because I can just say "well, I didn't try that hard, no surprise nobody likes it."

People need to pull it together. Older/longer-participating members of fandom need to actually model encouraging community behavior if they want newer people coming in to also participate and not just lurk around.

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

yeah, it baffles me, and maybe this is just because I'm a teacher, that people in general don't seem to understand that most people will put in far more effort in a much more sustained way, if you just provide a little bit of steady feedback. Why is that so hard for us? Why are we so resistant? And I'm simplifying it to "just say thank you" because lord knows you can't give anybody complicated directions, but it isn't like the feedback has to be glowingly positive all the time. I'm okay with reasonably neutral feedback like "Hm, this didn't turn out like I thought it would" or "I haven't seen anybody else do this with this character, I tend to see it more like x or y" or you know, whatever.

It's not like I'm hunting for meaningless praise, but it's hard to take the cricket chirp of no or very few comments as anything but negative, or at bare minimum, like nobody would care if I just quit writing all together. And when you KNOW people are reading, but staying silent, it doesn't take long to start thinking "Do I really suck at this? Does everybody hate it? What am I doing wrong here?" I'm not an inherently low-self-esteem person, but after a while, even I start to feel that. Anybody would.

:/ I just wish I could figure out how to engineer a reversal of this blatant decline of community. K-pop is going to steal everybody good if we don't get it together, is already stealing most of the people on my flist.

[mousapelli.livejournal.com]

I've been trying very hard in the last six months or so to comment on everything I read, even if i'm pretty neutral about it, just so that somebody is saying something, and maybe other people will get the idea. But I have to say, just doing that silently without saying out loud "I AM COMMENTING AND YOU SHOULD TOO" did not effect any change that I could see.

So, I guess, maybe this will help some.